About Wolverine.. & others :)

This topic is made to continue a discussion about Wolverine that started something like this:

I don't see how an adamantium skeleton prevents you from being beheaded. I suggest you take a look at an anatomy book. The head isn't connected to the rest of the body by bones, it's be muscles. Each part of the spine is connected to each other by cartilage, otherwise you wouldn't be able to bend or turn your neck. So it's perfectly possible to behead him, rip him in half, rip his arms and legs of, and make carpaccio with his organs.

Technically, you're right. But in this case, you might me over-analizing.

First of all, whenever I saw - either in cartoons or movies - the parts where he had adamantium, I saw something like this. So they probably covered his cartilages and joints with adamantium too.

And secondly (this is actually the main reason) think about it. About this "adamantium" spin added to the story. WHY else would you introduce this factor (the adamantium skeleton) in the story if not to make the character almost-indestructible? He would have adamantium only in the bones for .. what? Avoiding breaking a leg when playing soccer? (cause only in that kind of cases they would be of use, if what you say were true)  No, sir. The intention is clearly to increase his survivability, and you can only do that by creating an inter-connected and indestructible skeleton structure. Maybe I am "over-supporting" it now, but another thing sustaining my theory is the importance that Wolverine is given. He is the main character of the "X-men Universe" and amongst the most popular in the whole Marvel Universe. And, although there are plenty of other "regenerative heroes" out there.. who is the most popular of this kind? (I'm really not a Wolverine fan-boy, this was just to prove my point)

i thought hulk has tore apart wolverine

This is quite controversial Broly. It's the exact same "problem" that I encountered a couple of weeks ago when I watched this Superman vs Hulk video on youtube, and read its comments. I am refering to the fact that we have multiple sources of information about the powers / attributes of the heroes, and they are VERY DIFFERENT. A short example about Superman: in some comics / cartoons we are told that he can move moons / planets, but on the other hand - in the "Superman returns" movie he is having serious problems stopping a plane from crashing into the earth. And I think there's a "small" difference between a planet's weight and that of a plane..
So before we continue such a discussion we need to establish the exact parameters that we are working with... but that's not going to be easy.

if you do want to continue just open a new thread with this theme and I'll make my case.

Nowhere Man, you're up.

[Tony Stark]

One thing about ripping apart , the upper limits of Hulk's strength are unknown, so it is likely possible for him to be strong enough to do that.

What I didn't get was in the game Spider-Man: Web of Shadows, where if you pick the black suit option, tears in half to remove the symbiote from him. Even with the symbiote, I never thought would be strong enough to rip apart adamantium...

[Dihan]

This is quite controversial Broly. It's the exact same "problem" that I encountered a couple of weeks ago when I watched this Superman vs Hulk video on youtube, and read its comments. I am refering to the fact that we have multiple sources of information about the powers / attributes of the heroes, and they are VERY DIFFERENT. A short example about Superman: in some comics / cartoons we are told that he can move moons / planets, but on the other hand - in the "Superman returns" movie he is having serious problems stopping a plane from crashing into the earth. And I think there's a "small" difference between a planet's weight and that of a plane..
So before we continue such a discussion we need to establish the exact parameters that we are working with... but that's not going to be easy.

The way I see it one is a comic or cartoon, the latter in particular having an intended audience with which moving planets is perfectly fine. The other is a movie which is aimed at that particular subsection of adults that demand for realism and drama to be put into everything - for them Superman would struggle with anything that they perceive to be heavy because otherwise it's not realistic or just a bit boring to watch. On the subject of movies, there are also budget constraints that limit what the CGI staff are able to do. This obviously does not exist in the world of cartoons or comics.

My rule of thumb is to ignore the films (and games) completely when it comes to power discussions. Even if they're produced by Marvel Studios or whatever equivalent DC has.

Wolverine is only important because he sells comics. Put him on the cover and the cash comes rolling in. It makes sense that he's indestructible if he's got so much economic importance.

Since we're talking others, can I bring  into the mix? Why, if he was given an insane healing factor, haven't his scars ever healed? Why does he still look like this?

Wolverine is only important because he sells comics. Put him on the cover and the cash comes rolling in. It makes sense that he's indestructible if he's got so much economic importance.

It seems we have a dilemma of "which is the cause & which is the effect" here. Is Wolverine "indestructible" because people like him, or do people like him because he is "more special" than other regenerative heroes?

My rule of thumb is to ignore the films (and games) completely when it comes to power discussions

Once again I am on the other "team" (of movies). I do believe that we need realism, even if we are talking about "make-believe" characters, places and events.
We need boundaries! For example, this idea referenced by Hman, that Hulk's strength is "sort of" limitless is..  too much. We can't have an all-powerful Hulk running around, because that could mean that, at some point, he might get so strong that he could rip the Earth in half with a single punch.

Do you know why we are having these problems, deciding which hero is more powerful, what are the limits of their strengths etc? Here's my "theory": Because we are trying to do something that not even their creators thought of. At least not at first. I think that a lot of the characters were created to exist separately.. each in their own "Universe". For example, in the "Hulk Universe" Hulk was supposedly the only super-hero in the world.. so it's easy to give him "limitless" powers. Why would you bother to specify the exact weight that he can lift, when there's nobody else that can come even remotely close to that? It doesn't really matter in those conditions.
So the need for boundaries, limits, specific parameters arises only when you have other super-powered beings, precisely because you want to compare them.

@Teancum: I can't help you there, cause I don't read comics..  but, luckily, Wikipedia can:

"Artificially endowed by the Weapon X program, this enables Deadpool to regenerate any destroyed tissues or organs at a super-human rate as well as making him immune to known diseases and infections. An unanticipated side effect was a rapid acceleration of the cancerous tumors he was suffering from at the time, causing them to quickly spread across his entire body as soon as his powers fully activated. Because of this, his healing factor super charged his cancer, resulting in massive scar tissue causing his appearance to be severely disfigured."

Yup, I'm also having some problems with that "his healing factor super charged his cancer" part..

Yeah, that's my hangup too. His healing factor supercharged a disease? Yeah, sounds weird.

[Nowhere Man]

As for what can break adamantium, Thor has been seen sculpting uru, which is notoriously more durable than adamantium, with his fingers. So, it's safe to say it's just very hard, but not at all indestructable.

Also, I'm not saying that having the adamantium doesn't make him more durable, I'm just saying that he can still be torn apart by people with enough strength or skill. It also makes it very easy for him to drown, I mean, try swimming carrying a backpack full of metal and you'll see what I mean. Wolverine's skeleton may be quasi-indestructable, but not Wolverine himself.

Another thing is that people several times overestimate the healing factor, including writers. I mean, he'd have to eat a lot to recover from some injuries. No matter how fast you heal, you can't if there isn't enough matter in your body to replace/heal whatever's been damaged. I've seen writers make it so that Wolverine heals from having all his tissues burned off and only his skeleton left. It's just pure nonsense.

As for Deadpool, what I've read is that his cancer is in some way his healing factor. His cells regenerate at an incredible rate, he has a healing factor notoriously more potente than Wolverine's, but his "default" form is that of a giant tumor. That's why unlike most healing characters, he can regenerate brain cells, reattach limbs and so on. And the fact that his brain cells are in a constant state of flux is used to justify the fact that he's insane in the membrane.

[Tien shinhan]

This is quite controversial Broly. It's the exact same "problem" that I encountered a couple of weeks ago when I watched this Superman vs Hulk video on youtube, and read its comments. I am refering to the fact that we have multiple sources of information about the powers / attributes of the heroes, and they are VERY DIFFERENT. A short example about Superman: in some comics / cartoons we are told that he can move moons / planets, but on the other hand - in the "Superman returns" movie he is having serious problems stopping a plane from crashing into the earth. And I think there's a "small" difference between a planet's weight and that of a plane..
So before we continue such a discussion we need to establish the exact parameters that we are working with... but that's not going to be easy.

as for superman,Superman have changed since his introduction in the 1930s.The extent of his powers peaked during the 1970s and 1980s to the point where various writers found it difficult to create suitable challenges for the character. As a result his powers were significantly reduced when his story was rebooted by writer John Byrne after the Crisis on Infinite Earths series. After Byrne's departure, Superman's powers were gradually increased again, although he still remains weaker than his Pre-Crisis incarnation.After being saturated with yellow solar energy in All-Star Superman, his strength was tested as exceeding the force of two hundred billion billion tons.Also superman beat hulk in a fight.So arguably he is stronger than the hulk,considering the fact that hulks strength upperlimit has not yet been found out.

[Tony Stark]

as for superman,Superman have changed since his introduction in the 1930s.The extent of his powers peaked during the 1970s and 1980s to the point where various writers found it difficult to create suitable challenges for the character. As a result his powers were significantly reduced when his story was rebooted by writer John Byrne after the Crisis on Infinite Earths series. After Byrne's departure, Superman's powers were gradually increased again, although he still remains weaker than his Pre-Crisis incarnation.After being saturated with yellow solar energy in All-Star Superman, his strength was tested as exceeding the force of two hundred billion billion tons.Also superman beat hulk in a fight.So arguably he is stronger than the hulk,considering the fact that hulks strength upperlimit has not yet been found out.

One thing to know about the All-Star comics, Broly, is that they don't take place in the mainstream DC Universe.

It also makes it very easy for him to drown.

Of course! I never said that he can't be killed at all, in any way. I only said he can't be killed through physical damage. So the real flaw that these "regenerative heroes" have is that they still need to breathe.

Another thing is that people several times overestimate the healing factor, including writers. I mean, he'd have to eat a lot to recover from some injuries. No matter how fast you heal, you can't if there isn't enough matter in your body to replace/heal whatever's been damaged. I've seen writers make it so that Wolverine heals from having all his tissues burned off and only his skeleton left. It's just pure nonsense.

Wow, dude! Now you're definitely over-analizing!! I mean.. yeah, you're OBVIOUSLY RIGHT but... what are you doing in this "make believe Universe" when you're scrutinizing everything? I can get all "technical" like this too, if I want to: the procedure of inserting the adamantium into his body is absurd, even with an insane healing factor. And how did they get the adamantium to go exactly where it was intended? Also, if he now has adamantium bones, what happened to the "old bones"? And what about those claws.. HOW do they come out? In order for that to happen' you need some kind of "mechanism" to perform that action.. you can't just say "claws out!", and don't you even dare to say that the muscles are doing it, cause I'm gonna come back at you with at least 2 counter-arguments.
So... stop over-analizing, because you'll end up not believing anything if you continue thinking like this

As for what can break adamantium, Thor has been seen sculpting uru, which is notoriously more durable than adamantium, with his fingers.

And you're having no problems accepting this?!? I mean, I know that Thor is a "god" and all that.. but this is just an uber-exaggeration, in my opinion. If this were true, that would mean that Thor is a hell of lot stronger than Hulk!! Why? Well .. when you say that Hulk tore Wolverine apart, I presume you believe that he had some problems doing that, right? It wasn't as easy as ripping some chop-sticks, right? So then, let's recap.. Hulk is having problems ripping adamantium apart WITH HIS ARMS, and Thor is cutting through uru (which by your own standards is way more resilient than adamantium) like a knife through butter WITH HIS FINGERS? And to top it off, there's that cartoon in which Hulk beats Thor..
So it seems that once again it comes down to which source of information you are willing to trust.
(PS: curiously enough, you didn't over-analize this piece of information .. )

So, it's safe to say it's just very hard, but not at all indestructable.

See? This is EXACTLY what I've been saying with that "my character is the greatest in the Universe... this Universe, that is." Because, it IS actually stated in the X-men movies that adamantium really is indestructible!! (*only adamantium itself can pierce adamantium, that's why colonel Stryker tried to use an adamantium bullet to shoot Wolverine in the head)
So there you go.. in the "X-men Universe" adamantium is indestructible, but if you add the "Asgard Universe".. uru seems to beat adamantium. (this is also quite controversial from what I've been reading around)
Oh and by the way.. when I was doing that reading around I also found out that the "ripping in half of Wolverine by Hulk" was done in another Universe / reality. No, really! It's on Wikipedia:

"Within the Earth-1610 reality, otherwise known as the Ultimate Marvel Universe, adamantium also exists, but little is known about its history. Among the most notable information yet to be revealed is when adamantium was first created, the person or persons responsible for first creating it, and any of the properties and processes used in creating it. Only one form of adamantium has been seen in the Ultimate Universe thus far. It is currently unknown whether or not any other versions of adamantium exist, as they do in the Earth-616 reality.

Adamantium in the Ultimate Universe is highly durable and is able to effectively protect a person's mind from telepathic probing or attacks, a property that the Earth-616 version lacks completely. It has been shown as a component of the claws and skeleton of the Ultimate Wolverine and Ultimate Lady Deathstrike characters. The shield of Ultimate Captain America is composed entirely of adamantium. Though the Ultimate Marvel version of the Hulk was able to rip Wolverine in half, this was only damage to connective tissue. There was no evidence of damage to any of Wolverine's bones or the adamantium. Although, Wolverine himself remarked, "unbreakable... so much for that" after being ripped in half."

On the other hand, it seems you were right about that "what parts of Wolverine's body are covered by adamantium" part
So I guess one could say that in the end we are both right, because that happened in another Universe / reality => I am right in the "X-men Universe", you are right in the "Ultimate Marvel Universe".

*Happy ending*

Actually Adamantium weakens  's healing factor since it has to work 24 hours just so he won't die of metal poisoning.
When  removed all the adamantium from his body, his healing factor started working faster

It seems we have a dilemma of "which is the cause & which is the effect" here. Is Wolverine "indestructible" because people like him, or do people like him because he is "more special" than other regenerative heroes?

Once again I am on the other "team" (of movies). I do believe that we need realism, even if we are talking about "make-believe" characters, places and events.
We need boundaries! For example, this idea referenced by Hman, that Hulk's strength is "sort of" limitless is..  too much. We can't have an all-powerful Hulk running around, because that could mean that, at some point, he might get so strong that he could rip the Earth in half with a single punch.

Do you know why we are having these problems, deciding which hero is more powerful, what are the limits of their strengths etc? Here's my "theory": Because we are trying to do something that not even their creators thought of. At least not at first. I think that a lot of the characters were created to exist separately.. each in their own "Universe". For example, in the "Hulk Universe" Hulk was supposedly the only super-hero in the world.. so it's easy to give him "limitless" powers. Why would you bother to specify the exact weight that he can lift, when there's nobody else that can come even remotely close to that? It doesn't really matter in those conditions.
So the need for boundaries, limits, specific parameters arises only when you have other super-powered beings, precisely because you want to compare them.

@Teancum: I can't help you there, cause I don't read comics..  but, luckily, Wikipedia can:

"Artificially endowed by the Weapon X program, this enables Deadpool to regenerate any destroyed tissues or organs at a super-human rate as well as making him immune to known diseases and infections. An unanticipated side effect was a rapid acceleration of the cancerous tumors he was suffering from at the time, causing them to quickly spread across his entire body as soon as his powers fully activated. Because of this, his healing factor super charged his cancer, resulting in massive scar tissue causing his appearance to be severely disfigured."

Yup, I'm also having some problems with that "his healing factor super charged his cancer" part..

Basically in a cancer, the abnormal cells reproduce themselves without control. On the other hand, the process of healing injuries involves an inflammatory response, in which there are cell growth stimulating factors that enhances cell reproduction in order to replace the damaged tissue (of course this is a much simplified explanation xD). So it doesn't seem a crazy idea that Deadpool's cancer was over estimulated when exposed to the weapon x program. I don't know if it is specified somewhere which sort of cancer Deadpool had, but I know that some skin cancers look like scars (sort of), which may be the case.

Basically in a cancer, the abnormal cells reproduce themselves without control. On the other hand, the process of healing injuries involves an inflammatory response, in which there are cell growth stimulating factors that enhances cell reproduction in order to replace the damaged tissue (of course this is a much simplified explanation xD). So it doesn't seem a crazy idea that Deadpool's cancer was over estimulated when exposed to the weapon x program.

I know what you mean, and you are probably right... but still, it just doesn't sound right to have a healing ability boosting a disease. It's wrong, I tell'ya! Healing and Disease should be enemies, not friends!